after thousands of people died in the killer smogs.....

Air out your smoke complaint here. We can give advice from members who have found themselves in a similar situation as yours, gasping for a breath of fresh air.

Moderator: pm2.5mary

after thousands of people died in the killer smogs.....

Postby bodhi » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:18 pm

interesting information concerning wood smoke:

Many of us have had the experience of being unable to open a window, because of the smoke from our neighbour's fire. But the effect of wood smoke goes beyond having your hair and clothes smell of your neighbours' smoke. And it goes beyond asking, "Where did the view go?". Wood smoke can cause irritations of the nose, throat and sinuses. It can trigger coughs, asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, pneumonia, middle ear infections, cardiovascular disease, and even lung cancer. An EPA study in 1991 concluded that volume for volume, the smoke from a wood fire is 12 times more carcinogenic than the smoke from cigarettes!

read the entire article:
http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/moments/gmis9840.htm
bodhi
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:31 pm
Location: orlando, florida

Postby FriendofAir » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:32 pm

Good article.
FriendofAir
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:29 pm
Location: San Diego

We humans have been making fires ....

Postby pm2.5mary » Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:57 pm

Great article Bohdi. Thanks!© Karl S. Kruszelnicki Pty Ltd,1998 Australian Broadcasting Corporation 1998.
We humans have been making fires to cook meat and keep ourselves warm for over 400,000 years. But one of the troubles with a fire is that it gives off smoke. This smoke has bothered people for a long time. In 1661, Charles II of England commissioned John Evelyn to write a pamphlet called "Fumifugium: or the inconveniencie of the aer and smoak of London dissipated".

It was only after thousands of people died in the killer smogs in England in the early 1950s, that the Clean Air Act was passed in 1956. But it seems as though we haven't gone far enough. We now know that dirty air doesn't just take your view away, it also takes your breath away.

Some people might argue that we humans have burning wood fires for hundreds of thousands of years, and they haven't done us any harm, so what's all the fuss? Well the whole point is that they have been causing lots of harm all that time - lung diseases have always been one of the major killers.

According to the New South Wales Health Department, tiny particles in the air kill about 400 people each year prematurely, in that state. In the USA, it's thought that dirty air, mainly from burning stuff, kills tens of thousands of people each year.

Many of us have had the experience of being unable to open a window, because of the smoke from our neighbour's fire. But the effect of wood smoke goes beyond having your hair and clothes smell of your neighbours' smoke. And it goes beyond asking, "Where did the view go?". Wood smoke can cause irritations of the nose, throat and sinuses. It can trigger coughs, asthma, bronchitis, emphysema, pneumonia, middle ear infections, cardiovascular disease, and even lung cancer. An EPA study in 1991 concluded that volume for volume, the smoke from a wood fire is 12 times more carcinogenic than the smoke from cigarettes!

The smoke from a wood fire has tiny particles floating in the air. There's a special jargon used to describe these tiny particles. They're called "PM" or "Particulate Matter". PM10 are particles that are smaller than 10 microns in size (a micron is a millionth of a metre, and 10 microns is roughly the size of a bacterium, or one seventh of the size of a human hair). Today, PM10s are defined as particles between 2.5 and 10 microns in size. PM10s come both from natural sources (such as dust from soil and roads, and tiny droplets of seawater) and from artificial sources (such as trucks and buses, and the wood processing industry). The PM10 particles tend to fall to the ground fairly rapidly.

There are even smaller particles called PM2.5 - they're smaller than 2.5 microns. They mostly come from burning. They're made up of various sulphates, nitrates, tiny particles of carbon, or other condensed organic stuff. PM2.5 particles tend to hover for days, if not weeks. The real problem with the PM2.5 particles, is that they're so small that they can penetrate very deeply into your lungs. They can interfere with your respiratory system, and as a result, with your cardiovascular system as well. A recent article in Nature says that these tiny PM2.5 particles make smog and ozone.

We know that polluted air contains large amounts of various oxides of nitrogen. We also know that during the night, some of these oxides of nitrogen are turned into nitrous acid (HNO2), and that in sunlight, the nitrous acid turns into smog and ozone. Where did the nitrous acid came from? The Nature article says that suspended soot particles can turn nitrogen dioxide (NO2) into nitrous acid, 10 million times faster than other catalysts. Yep, soot from fires turns oxides of nitrogen into smog and ozone.

These dangerous particles are not being released from some giant industrial chimney complex hundreds of kilometres from where you live - they come from badly-tuned motor vehicles, barbecue grills and wood fires in the streets and backyards where you live.

In much of our society, wood fires are the main source of these tiny dangerous particles. But don't think that a brand-new latest-technology wood stove is a clean burner. In fact, such a wood stove will put out as much particle pollution in one day, as a car running for 15,000 kilometres, or one year. What can we do about it? Well, that's what I'll discuss next time......

© Karl S. Kruszelnicki Pty Ltd 1998.

Karl's Home Page
© 1998 Australian Broadcasting Corporation
User avatar
pm2.5mary
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:04 pm

Re: after thousands of people died in the killer smogs.....

Postby begreen9 » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:07 pm

bodhi wrote:Many of us have had the experience of being unable to open a window, because of the smoke from our neighbour's fire. But the effect of wood smoke goes beyond having your hair and clothes smell of your neighbours' smoke. And it goes beyond asking, "Where did the view go?".


Funny, I remember this being primarily a summer issue. It is written up in hiking and photographic journals frequently. In parts of the pristine Rockies the view has decreased by 50 miles or more at times. Why ground ozone is one reason. Industrial pollution is surrounding the planet and hot summer days set up ideal conditions for photochemical smog. The source at times can be half-way around the globe. As man industrializes and paves the planet, it only gets worse. If you want to know where the view is going, look towards your neighbors Ford Expedition or Chevy Suburban for starters.

http://www.outdoors.org/conservation/mo ... tch/aq.cfm
http://www.outdoors.org/conservation/mo ... FS05-2.pdf
begreen9
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:45 pm

Postby VT Woodburner » Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:47 am

My 2003 Ford Expedition is classified by the EPA as ULEV, or "Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle". It burns cleaner than many cars.
It tows my 7x12 crafts trailer all around the northeast which a Prius can't do and it gets 20 MPG on the highway when I'm not towing the trailer.
Now if you can come up with a vehicle that can tow up to 7,200 pounds, is comfortable enough for someone with rheumatioid arthritis to ride in for 7 hours on a Sunday night, gets 100 MPG, and emits no pollution, and costs under $25,000 let me know!
VT Woodburner
 

Postby bodhi » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:49 am

i understand that work on the electric car has started up again.
~bodhi
bodhi
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:31 pm
Location: orlando, florida

Postby VT Woodburner » Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:42 am

Bodhi,
And just where are we to find the electricity to plug the car into? The wall? No, we get it from power plants that burn coal. And if we go to electric cars we WILL need more power plants. And I want you to tell us just where those plants will go.

Also they tried electric vehicles here in Vermont a few years ago. When it went below 32 degrees the trucks just didn't go very well. And it goes below 32 degrees constantly from October to May.

But there's an old technology that's geting new attention. UPS has new trucks using "Hydraulic Hybrid" technology. Hydraulic energy is stored and used to power a pump that takes the place of the electric motor in today's hybrids. It was put in a Ford F150 pickup and the truck got over 60 miles per gallon. Ford may be introducing the pickup as early as 2009.
VT Woodburner
 

Postby NY Woodburner » Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:39 am

bodhi wrote:i understand that work on the electric car has started up again.
~bodhi


Take a look at Tesla Motors. Pretty awesome stuff coming out and will really change the image of electric cars. But the big question will be where does that power come from.

Electric cars will be wonderful to the extent that they consume off-peak production in the middle of the night that is otherwise underutilized. Many coal plants produce 24x7 whether you need the power or not, and as a result, off-peak power is priced low and has little commercial value despite the fact that pollution was generated to create it. Recapturing that will be a great opportunity to help offset some gas engine emissions.

However, if electric cars come online while our government subsidizes new coal plants to create the electricity required, that will be a sad step backwards.
EPA certified catalytic wood heaters - A carbon neutral renewable green energy solution!
NY Woodburner
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:41 am
Location: New York State

Postby bodhi » Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:29 am

VT Woodburner wrote:Bodhi,
And just where are we to find the electricity to plug the car into? The wall? No, we get it from power plants that burn coal. And if we go to electric cars we WILL need more power plants. And I want you to tell us just where those plants will go.
But there's an old technology that's geting new attention. UPS has new trucks using "Hydraulic Hybrid" technology. Hydraulic energy is stored and used to power a pump that takes the place of the electric motor in today's hybrids. It was put in a Ford F150 pickup and the truck got over 60 miles per gallon. Ford may be introducing the pickup as early as 2009.


VT,
agreed.
we need a serious overhaul on energy. as i was saying earlier,
the fight should not be happening in here. the fight is out there.
whatever can be done to make breathing safer is a step forward.
wind and solar have been getting lots of attention.
hopefully it won't be too little too late...
~bodhi
bodhi
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:31 pm
Location: orlando, florida

Postby begreen9 » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:24 pm

Unfortunately wind power gets a lot of flack from the nimbys. Wind farms got shot down off the coast of Nantucket because they might spoil the view of the rich and famous. Similar battles are going on across the country. But that giant sucking sound is the straw at the bottom of the oil barrel. Yes, let's hope it won't be too little too late.
begreen9
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:45 pm

Re: We humans have been making fires ....

Postby slowzuki » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:49 am

Do you know what caused the killer smog? Burning coal, not wood. If wood had been available in such a quantity and burned as poorly as back then it could have caused some problems too, save the sulfuric emissions.

pm2.5mary wrote:Great article Bohdi. Thanks!© Karl S. Kruszelnicki Pty Ltd,1998 Australian Broadcasting Corporation 1998.

It was only after thousands of people died in the killer smogs in England in the early 1950s, that the Clean Air Act was passed in 1956.
slowzuki
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:00 am

Re: We humans have been making fires ....

Postby bodhi » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:02 am

slowzuki wrote:Do you know what caused the killer smog? Burning coal, not wood. If wood had been available in such a quantity and burned as poorly as back then it could have caused some problems too, save the sulfuric emissions.


true...
Heavy smoking and chronic exposure to pollution had already weakened the lungs of those who fell ill during the smog. Particulates and acids in the killer brew finished the job by triggering massive inflammations. In essence, the dead had suffocated.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... yId=873954
bodhi
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:31 pm
Location: orlando, florida

Postby begreen9 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:50 pm

Clarification, burning very soft coal, aka lignite. Not sold in this country.
begreen9
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:45 pm

Postby slowzuki » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:18 am

Soft coal is indeed available in this country, hard coal (Anthrcite) was illegal to sell initially and people were imprisioned for selling it because it was so hard to ignite some people thought they were "had" and bought rocks.

begreen9 wrote:Clarification, burning very soft coal, aka lignite. Not sold in this country.
slowzuki
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:00 am

Postby bodhi » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:06 am

NY Woodburner wrote:
bodhi wrote:i understand that work on the electric car has started up again.
~bodhi

Take a look at Tesla Motors. Pretty awesome stuff coming out and will really change the image of electric cars. But the big question will be where does that power come from.


NYWB,
thanks for the ref on Tesla motors. that car on the front page is amazing.
too bad about the price. 95 grand.
unless the major auto manufacturers get all over the electric car it looks like there will be a serious price disincentive.
yeah, i agree, the coal has to go.
~bodhi
bodhi
 
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:31 pm
Location: orlando, florida

Next

Return to Smoke Complaints and Advice from our members.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron