What? Wood Smoke Kills!

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What? Wood Smoke Kills!

Postby JonathanJo » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:56 am

What a load of B******!

I am very much interested in all environmental issues and have just set up
a community group to look into issues of sustainability and how we as a community can address climate change here in the UK. I have like most watched an Inconvenient Truth. Al Gore's message is clear. We have to lead by example in the developed world so that undeveloped nations can also have their chance to develop but with the interests of our planet at the forefront of their agenda.

When I read such utter sensational tripe like 'wood smoke causes cancer', it makes me very very angry. We are all working very hard at finding solutions to climate change and making our environment sustainable.

Everyone is bashing on about a carbon free future. Well its a bit like saving the African elephant from extinction. A successful program is put in place to solve the problem. The elephants are allowed an environment free of natural predators. Then there is an explosion of population and what happens they have to start culling elephants because there are too many!

The planet would not exist with out Carbon Dioxide. It is part of its natural process and what allows us human being to coexist. For without carbon dioxide trees would not produce the oxygen that we breath.

What we have is too much of the stuff right now because we have been involved in such an intense industrial development for the last two hundred years that our environment can not cope. What we need to be doing is finding the solution by reducing our carbon emissions, finding alternative non fossil fuel energy's for the production of power and for transport and reducing our waste. Its a bit like going on a diet. The thing is that dieting is no good if you do it occasionally, you need to change your diet for the better. The real issue we need to be addressing is sustainability. How do we ensure a sustainable future for our offspring and they in turn theirs.

We already have a good majority of alternative technologies available already. But when elections are won and lost on the cost of a price of a barrel of oil, then quite naturally the greedy industrialists will not allow the development of these technologies. One of the finest examples of the electric car that was built by Ford for trials in California over ten years ago. The present product they have available is now offered as a hybrid to ensure the oil companies can still sell their precious commodity.

But as for 'Wood smoke kills', if you want to go around in a hermetically sealed bubble then be my guest. Frankly, what doesn't give you cancer these days. You know what, if I get the big 'C', I'll be sueing the wanker who came up with 'Wood Smoke Kills' cause I'll swear thats what did it! I am looking forward to my wood smoke filled winter with the satisfaction that I know its the last thing thats going to kill me!

Whats more that it is sustainable solution. Its not a fossil fuel and its renewable. Long may we have roaring open fires, to roast our marshmallows and keep the cockles of hearts gently glowing.

Chairman of the Rauceby Little Footprint Initiative.
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Postby turning_blue » Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:35 pm

Why did you post this twice?
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Postby Wilberforce » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:35 pm

"When I read such utter sensational tripe like 'wood smoke causes cancer',
it makes me very very angry."


Why did he post this twice? I think that this person is so damn mad at us,
he can't even see straight. My guess is that he has his mind made up that
we are the enemy. Well we are not the enemy. We are the messenger.
Everyone knows that no one shoots the messenger. We are the messengers
of the things which need to be known by the public.

I did not even know about the health issues associated with wood smoke
until two years ago, upon doing research on the topic, and stumbled on to
this site. It actually took a while to convince me; I used to burn a lot of
wood too, years ago.

I don't think we need to show him around the site; we do like to help those
who are interested to learn, not so much those who refuse to concur, or at
least to be polite.

Well at least I can give this man credit for not falsely calling wood-burning
"carbon neutral." That is a no-no here at this site.
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Postby Wilberforce » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:35 pm

Facts do not matter to some people. What they believe is what is important.
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Postby Smokelessinvancouver » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:47 pm

I find it very interesting to see how angry some people get rather than being open minded to learning and exploring all the facts. The more it gets in the papers and on the news then maybe these types of people will open their minds and their hearts. No one has the right to make us sick or pollute our environment.
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Re: wood smoke kills

Postby JonathanJo » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:03 am

Hi All

Clearly I was angry when I wrote this and yes it's not really to productive to be attacking another persons cause, but I'm sorry there is a whole lot more to worry about than just wood smoke. I agree particulate contaminants is a worthy issue to be championing. But for gods sake if you need a cause, then make it worthwhile, make it something thats going to make a difference. Try solving the issues of climate change not whining about your neighbours wood smoke. I used to live in London in a basement flat and the woman above me used to complain about my cooking smells! Thats what this about narrow, shallow, single minded people who have nothing better to do with their lives then whine about their neighbours. I know I am wrong to try and attack your cause and maybe I should not care. Maybe you are right why should I bother coming to your site if I am not prepared to learn. I did read the evidence that you have to substantiate your claims. I am still not convinced. For that I apologize. I know how hard it is to convince people to change their views. My main concern is that with this kind of side stepping issue it makes our job all the harder to convince those who believe that climate change is a myth that its a reality and we all need to do something about it. We need international exchanges of ideas on solving the big issue, I am wrong to attack you, we should be working together on climate change issues, but come back to me when you have something tangible and I'll be happy to work with you.


Chairman of the RLFI - www.raucebyonline.co.uk
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Postby Wilberforce » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:11 am

We do support efforts to curb greenhouse emissions. See our Alt Energy section. I have posted there
links to wind and solar power, etc. But that is not the main focus of this site. Here at BurningIssues
we are filling a niche which needs filling. That is the wood smoke issue, and the growing awareness
of the connection to ill health. An increasing number of people and government regulators are becoming
aware of this once-little-known issue. We don't hold anyone unaware of these things in contempt.

It is easy to say that others "whine" about things, when these things do not bother oneself. For example,
there is a new organization in my town which seeks to reduce or eliminate the ultra-loud car stereos,
some of which blare on through the night, keeping early shift workers and babies awake. Can't people
expect some reasonable peace and quiet in their homes? With reasonably clean air to breathe?

Almost everyone (myself included) has a 'live and let live' approach to life. I don't complain to anyone
until a situation becomes intolerable. And if one of my neighbors came to me with some complaint,
however small, I would not only take that complaint seriously, I would try to put myself in that person's
position ('walk a mile in his shoes') so that I can imagine his point of view. The problem in today's world
is that there are too few people willing to take this extra effort, to at least make an attempt to understand
another person's point of view. What I am saying is that, if a perfect stranger lodges a complaint to
something I am doing (or not doing, such as cutting my lawn) I must take heed, and take action, to at
least make an attempt to satisfy the fellow's concerns. Some things can, and do, get out of hand.
That is why he is here with his complaint. I do not assume that a stranger is a 'whiner' if they have
a legitimate concern. After all, he probably has a similar approach as I have: 'live and let live.'

W
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Postby turning_blue » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:44 pm

Actually, he posted this three times. Once on his own forum.

JonathanHo, do you acknowledge that tobacco causes cancer?


http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/fact ... cco/cancer

http://burningissues.org/car-www/pdfs/W ... lemira.pdf
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Postby JonathanJo » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:25 am

Hi Woodnyet

I do agree with the principles of 'live and let live' and I am a compassionate individual who also takes complaints seriously. I was only putting a point forward that with regards to the enormous subject of dealing with issues of climate change there are far greater 'burning issues' than wood smoke. I am happy that you are supporting efforts to curb greenhouse emissions and I hope that this is something that we could have an international exchange of dialogue about. I am sure you must have many thought on the subject and I would love to discuss this further. I can be contacted through the above posted website.

Also in reply to Turning Blues post. Yes I do! Whats more it is customary and only polite when visiting another forum to leave a message!

All the best

Jonathan Jo
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Postby turning_blue » Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:54 am

JonathanJo,

It wasn't polite to write "What a load of B*******!" In fact your first post was rude. You called us whiners, yet, you write that I was not being polite because I did not leave a post on your forum.

I visited your site because you posted its' address here on the forum. That does not obligate me to post. Nor does it make me impolite for not posting.

If you recognize that tobacco causes cancer, and you can see the chemical composition page that I posted about wood smoke and tobacco, how can you not draw the same conclusion for wood smoke? There are many scientific studies that prove how harmful wood smoke is.

How can you post "What a load of B*******!" when you haven't read the literature? All 3 of your identical initial posts (including the one on your own forum), do not give me any incentive to post on your forum. Can you understand that?
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Postby JonathanJo » Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:44 am

Hi Turning Blue

Thanks for that. No, I still don't buy it even after reading the literature. Any how. Also, yes I can understand you not wanting to post a reply.

Best wishes
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Postby Wilberforce » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:21 am

Everyone has had a wood sliver in a finger at some time or another. Sometimes this can lodge
under a fingernail (oouch!) What happens to that embedded sliver if it is not removed/cared for?
The site will become inflamed, and possibly infected. Not good.

I am using the wood sliver analogy for airborne wood smoke ultrafine particles, which have a
shape not unlike a common sliver. Their appearance is almost similar to the wood chips which are
spread around shrubs as landscaping fill. Some have jagged, sharp-cutting edges!

Billions of these microscopic chips and sliver-shaped particles float in the air as wood fire effluent.
The particles are coated with all of the chemical products of combustion, including the sugar-derivatives
(the sweet smell) as well as the more poisonous ones (benz[a]pyrene, dioxin, and many others)
which are formed by pyrolysis. Think of a poisoned wood sliver piercing the skin. Then think of billions
of poisoned micro-slivers piercing lung cells, some which may actually 'inject' said chemicals into
the tissues. Sort of like a hypodermic needle would inject something under skin.

That being said, do you "buy" this:
http://burningissues.org/car-www/medica ... ticle.html
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Postby Dorre » Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:50 pm

JonathanJo wrote:Hi Woodnyet

Also in reply to Turning Blues post. Yes I do! Whats more it is customary and only polite when visiting another forum to leave a message!
Jonathan Jo


I posted a response. Hope at least some people there will read it and consider the evidence.
http://www.s137494324.websitehome.co.uk ... eboard.htm
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Doctors say wood smoke kills. My experience is the same.

Postby Ernest Grolimund » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:46 pm

Doctor Brown, phd, quoted hospital associations as saying that 30 mcg/cubic meter of pm2.5 for a few hours can cause asthma attacks and heart attacks and these two things can kill. Dr. Brown wrote an article on outdor wood boilers and you can find it at www.ehhi.org I believe. The AM Lung Assn gave me the article and endorsed it and the Maine DEP introduced it as evidence in their outdoor wood boiler hearings. The ME Toxicologist said Dr. Brown was an outstanding scientist and Conn. hired him to study OWB's. The EPA paid him $500,000 to do the study.

My own personal experience is not scientific and I am not a person of note. But it does make me believe that wood smoke can kill. The DEP helped me estimate how much smoke might be around my house when wood burning started in my neigborhood. We were astonished to find that it could very well be around 100 mcg/cubic meter and a neighbor had a heart attack and my daughter had an asthma attack and so I have a different point of view.

I suggest that CAR put the OWB report by Brown on their website for people like Jo. I can spout off all I want but it's articles like Brown's that might move Jo, and Nancy Sutley, Obama's new advisor from Los Angeles. Maybe then we can get more action or more research. I have to think that she knows of this website living in L.A. where they banned all new woodburning equipment in new houses. Maybe I will write a letter to her and post it here for others to add comments and support. I promise to write it out before hand and get rid of all the typos and bad arguments.
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